If you are looking for a church JOIN FOR FREE to find the right church for you. December 5, 2019. 42302 N Vision Way Ste 110. October 23, 2022 - Melisa Ortiz Berry Galatians 3:23-4:7. I do give Shiflett props for speaking up. The North Valley Baptist Church in Santa Clara has been fined $15,000 the largest coronavirus-related fines levied so far in Santa Clara County for holding indoor services in violation. Upon receipt of the notice of the allegations, we immediately placed him on administrative leave of all activities and responsibilities, to conduct a thorough and honest investigation. Nothing in this post should be construed as an accusation of guilt. He is also survived by 5 . ! December 4, 2019 / 9:54 PM Start Training For The Ministry God Has Called You To Today! Search for "North Valley Baptist Church" within the Boxcast app. An arrest warrant was obtained and served on Monday. Copyright 2023 The Life and Times of Bruce Gerencser Powered by Flywheel, Black Collar Crime: IFB Preacher Cameron Giovanelli Pleads Guilty to Sex Crimes, Black Collar Crime: IFB Preacher Cameron Giovanelli Accused of Sexual Assault, Black Collar Crime: Pastor Cameron Giovanelli Resurrects From the Dead, Found in Florida, Black Collar Crime: IFB Preacher Cameron Giovanelli Charged with Sexual Assault, Sexual Abuse and the Jack Hyles Rule: If You Didnt See It, It Didnt Happen, Black Collar Crime: Pastor Eddy Noelsaint Accused of Rape, Black Collar Crime: Evangelical Youth Pastor Josh Henley Sentenced to Forty-Five Years in Prison for Sex Crimes Against Children, Black Collar Crime: Evangelical Student Ministry Leader Vernon Willis Accused of Inappropriately Touching Church Girls, Evangelicals are an Existential Threat to the United States, Some Atheists Think I was Stupid for not Deconverting Sooner, Black Collar Crime: Catholic School Teacher Verity Beck Accused of Murdering Her Parents, Black Collar Crime: Evangelical Evangelist Chris Brooks Accused of Assaulting His Wife, Why I Write The Black Collar Crime Series and Will Continue to Do So Despite Criticism from Evangelicals, Dr. David Tee Thinks Everyone Who is Not a Christian is an Atheist, Bruce, I Pray You Will Have Your Eyes Opened and the Truth will Guide You, Dont Dress Like a Whore if You Dont Want to Get Sexually Assaulted Says Lori Alexander. Signed by Magistrate Judge James R. Klindt on 11/2 . He thought God sent him to stop him from doing something, said Giovanelli in police charging documents. Shiflett, as you can imagine, has received a flood of emails, comments, etc. In May 2018, I wrote a post about the sexual assault allegations made against Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) preacher and college president Cameron Giovanelli. If a video is removed by Google, it says so. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Cameron Giovanelli, the president of Golden State Baptist College an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) institution operated by Pastor Jack Trieber and North Valley Baptist Church in Santa Clara, California, stands accused of repeatedly sexually assaulting a church teenager when he was the pastor of Calvary Baptist Church inDundalk, Maryland. there is no discernment in what you read. This video will help set the stage for our gradual release of information. I also dont like the fact that the pastor used the word consensual in describing the relationship between Giovanelli and the victim. Prosecutors allege he had illegal sexual contact with a then-17-year-old between January and August of 2007. An attorney for Giovanelli says his client categorically denies the allegations. DUNDALK, MD. Please read the commenting rules before commenting. Giovanelli had faced up to 78 years in prison if he was convicted of all 12 counts. I also dont like the fact that the pastor used the word consensual in describing the relationship between Giovanelli and the victim. Why? He clarified his use of the word consensual and shared with me that his investigation was for his own peace of mind since Giovanelli was a friend and the former pastor of Calvary Baptist Church. Hes likely never going to be given the grace that Giovanelli will be extended. Must one know Christ how does someone know a corpse? Bruce pastored Evangelical churches for twenty-five years in Ohio, Texas, and Michigan. I know this blog has high traffic numbers, and leveraging this traffic to expose alleged sexual abuse seems, at least to me, to be something I can and must do. Plaintiff states that Mr. Giovanelli worked in concert with the Church, that was led by "Greg Neal, the de facto sole leader," to "ensure their church, publishing company, and soon-opening college would not suffer financially from this blemish on its record." Id. Mark graduated from Coeur d'Alene High School in 1970. He and Greg Neal are opening a college in Florida. Bruce Gerencser, 65, lives in rural Northwest Ohio with his wife of 44 years. I think they handled it as best they could under the circumstances you stated. Every preacher across this land should follow his lead. Gives Christians a terrible name. 11 reviews of Golden State Baptist College "This is one of the best colleges ever!!! More than two dozen people came from the church to support the victim, who came forward last year in a blog post detailing her story. (WJZ) Cameron Giovanelli, a former Baptist preacher, was quiet and subdued as he entered guilty pleas to a fourth-degree sex offense and second-degree assault on Wednesday. Lets now turn our attention to better protecting the flock of God & being more bold & biblical in exposing the wolves. Calvary Baptist Church 1975 GA Hwy 82 | Statham, GA 30666 770-725-5164 10. Its not even the fact that he messed up! But, abusers dont stop until they are made to stop. AND NOT EACH OTHER!!!!!!!!!!!! Mark your calendar and register now for an unforgettable experience on March 27-28. Quite refreshing to hear. You have destroyed Him. I attended and graduated, and it was one of the best experiences of my life! Now, it seems, they have their own scandal. I mean the most accurate statement any of us could say is that he has been accused of sexual misconduct, and even in that statement the victim has not yet publicly stated details as to what depth the misconduct was. . Jesus Christ has freed me from addiction and I STILL fail every single day in soooooo many areas of my life! Still, I have to object to the false idea that being saved changes people essentially from sinners to something else. (Case Information). You can listen to every sermon that is preached from the pulpit of North Valley Baptist Church via podcast. If they were to pronounce the man guilty on a world wide stream of something he hasnt officially been convicted of, there would be the potential for a defamation suit from him. Joe Major (Faith Baptist Church) . If the allegations against Giovanelli are true, then he sexually assaulted a minor girl while he was in a position of authority over her. The victim has filed charges with authorities. All responsibilities of any nature whatsoever, were permanently and immediately terminated with receipt of his resignation. As of the writing of this post, no criminal charges have been filed. Most pastors would not do what he did, so he deserves a lot of credit for doing the right thing. A former pastor at the Calvary Baptist Church in Dundalk has been arrested on several sexual assault charges for allegedly abusing a then-17-year-old student a decade ago, between January and August of 2007. Cameron Giovanelli Resigns From Golden State Baptist College. Filing 8 SUMMONS issued as to Cameron Giovanelli, Sarah Giovanelli, Immanuel Baptist Church. The Black Collar Crime Series relies on public news stories and publicly available information for its content. YEARS IN BUSINESS (602) 569-0140. . The young lady from Maryland, who came forward says she was 17 when the misconduct by Giovanelli started. Gregory Joseph Prusak Kubicki Draper contact info. Upon receipt of the notice of the allegations, we immediately placed him on administrative leave of all activities and responsibilities, to conduct a thorough and honest investigation. By giving over responsibility to Christ, by being saved, you shift the foundation of your responsibility to, at best, an historical fugure represented by women-haters and bullies. In 2017, the state legislature changed the statute of limitations to age 38. Golden State Baptist College released the following statement: It has come to our attention that allegations of inappropriate conduct have been made against Cameron Giovanelli, a member of our staff. I just think that there is a difference between covering something up / trying to conceal a crime, and restraining from publicly convicting someone in a capacity that is not in a court of law, and before all the facts have come out (usually a court of law is necessary for this). No clergy from other faiths are included in this list at this time. Cameron Shane Giovanelli, 42, of Orange Park, Florida, was pastor of Calvary Baptist Church from 2004 to 2014. 42-year-old Cameron Giovanelli has been charged with sexual abuse of a minor, perverted practice, and fourth-degree sexual offense. Dr. Jack Trieber takes you through. REPORT AND RECOMMENDATION 1 JAMES R. KLINDT, Magistrate Judge. Im not saying that the evidence isnt compelling or that she isnt believed because I believe her, but that doesnt mean that the church can publicakky convict or punish him outside of a court of law. He made it very clear that if such things happen at his church to a minor, it is immediately reported to law enforcement. But attacking a church that had NOTHING to do with what this man did is unnerving ! Cameron Giovanelli. This church and school is a kind of spin-off of HAC and FBCHammond (Trieber, the church's pastor and the college's chancellor is a HAC grad). Lets hope thats not the case. a principal, coach, teacher, or counselor whos at least 21 years old, employed by the school, and was in a supervisory position over the student), https://statelaws.findlaw.com/maryland-law/maryland-rape-and-sexual-assault-laws.html. Giovanelli and went on to make Bro. Subscribe to our emails to get periodic updates and to learn about upcoming events, special giveaways, and helpful articles. It is for this reason, that I continue to post Black Collar Crime stories, regardless of the threats and abuse hurled my way. With this plea agreement, 10 of those counts will be dropped. Friday, May 11 - The victim outed Cameron Giovanelli for sexually abusing her when he was pastor of Calvary Baptist Church in Dundalk, MD and she was a 16-year old student in their . This post is about sexual asssault, and you are more worried about someone having a potty mouth? Take your sanctimonious morality policing and shove it where the sun doesnt shine. Brother Tony, I read your reply on Anderson, I know you all think I'm argumentative but, when you don't agree..the first thought I had is, I wish you would introduce me to the guy that hasn't sinned, maybe David, that had a man killed so he could commit adultery, yet, he was & is a man after Gods own heart, or maybe Paul the guy that persecuted and had Christians killed, or maybe Richg or Kent H, or even you ! He made it very clear that if such things happen at his church to a minor, it is immediately reported to law enforcement. Cover-ups are all too common in both the IFB church movement and Evangelicalism as a whole. until she does we are all just assuming. LETS HATE SIN!!!!!! I know one thing for certain, IFB Christians are the nastiest, most violent people I have ever dealt with on this blog. I say let the police handle it. In World War 1, the first country Germany invaded was Belgium and France. Im sure that Giovanelli will paint himself as an innocent victim who pleaded guilty to avoid a long prison sentence. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make them drink. cameron giovanelli north valley baptist church. The opportunity to work hands-on in the bus ministry was such an amazing privilege. Many of the books published by NVP are written by the college's chancellor, Dr. Jack Trieber. Work Experience Pastor Planet Fitness 2002-2018 Associate Pastor Position Central Valley Baptist Church 2001- Education Bible College GSBC Golden State Baptist College Giovanelli was once an associate pastor for . I agree that churches shouldnt cover up crimes like this and Im glad we agree that the other pastor should have immediately gone to the police. A new lawsuit obtained by News4Jax accuses Cameron Giovanelli -- an ex-Maryland pastor who once pleaded guilty to sex offenses -- of defamation. Source Brian Clay Gray Anchor Baptist Church Filed Under: Baltimore County, Cameron Shane Giovanelli, Dundalk, Local TV, Maryland, Maryland News, Sexual abuse, Talkers DUNDALK, MD. Its kind of a lose-lose situation for them because they wanted to address the situation and not make it look like they were trying to cover it up (to me I really dont think they are doing that since he doesnt work there anymore and I think I read hes been banned from coming to the church), but they cant just say hes guilty and all that on a nation stream when the courts havent proven that yet. I am a researcher and writer at Watch Unto Prayer which I started 25 years ago. Cameron Giovanelli, the president of Golden State Baptist College an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) institution operated by Pastor Jack Trieber and North Valley Baptist Church in Santa Clara, California, stands accused of repeatedly sexually assaulting a church teenager when he was the pastor of Calvary Baptist Church in Dundalk, And,fuck off. cameron giovanelli, the president of golden state baptist college an independent fundamentalist baptist . From 1975 to the present, more than 4 million people have come to hear the preaching of God's Word, with over 80,000 making a profession of . I used to listen to personalities also when I was younger but today and for some time, my only concern is, does it line up with scripture & to me its hilarious that you think "I'm in a fix" LOL, I interpreted what we've discussed perfectly, not because I'm smart, but because with an open mind to things of God, its an easy read. Website. The Facts. I just dont understand how someone can get up at the pulpit every single week and preach the truth and be living a complete and total lie. These kind of laws apply to pastors, counselors, doctors, lawyers, social workers, dentists anyone who has a professional relationship with someone else. Cameron Giovanelli went to jail for sexual crimes against his victim, Sarah Jackson. According to testimony from Webster County Attorney's Office Investigator Larry Hedlund, Webb had also been driving Giovanelli's car that week. 2 months after Jordan Webb was arrested at his home & charged with second-degree sexual abuse with a minor, registered sex offender Cameron Giovanelli performed a Sunday AM music special at Harvest Baptist Church in Fort Dodge, IA. Request Information. A ministry of North Valley Baptist Church in Santa Clara, CA. We were deeply immersed in your end of the pool. The German invasion of Belgium was a military campaign which began on 4 August 1914. Shiflett says in public what many of us have known for years: the IFB church movement tends to cover-up criminal behavior out of fear of damaging their testimony. Heres to hoping that the light that Shiflett turned on the IFB movement will lead to the exposure of other sexual predators who have been hiding in plain sight for years. June 2018 | DBC teens attending youth conference at North Valley Baptist Church. UPDATE: Ex-Missionary Jordan Webb Webb was arrested on April 25 at the Fort Dodge home of Cameron Giovanelli, a registered sex offender. Baptist Churches. Response by Pastor Stacey Shiflett to North Valley Baptist Church Play: . She was 17, trembling and numb, while he was 29, married with children. (Please see Black Collar Crime: Pastor Cameron Giovanelli Resurrects From the Dead, Found in Florida), In August 2019, Giovanelli was charged by Baltimore, Maryland County police with sexual abuse of a minor and several other sex crimes. With all of your knowledge and experience, you still left the one who loved and died for you. According to the police,the abuse started with unsolicited kissing and progressed from there. He and his wife have six grown children and thirteen grandchildren. Thomas Jonathan Chantry (minister) charged with molesting five children. Your sin will ALWAYS find you out. The charges against Webb came on the tail of a complaint to the Webster County Sheriff's Office about Cameron Shane Giovanelli, an Independent Fundamental Baptist preacher who was a new. 075: Break These Chains | Diana Winkler's Escape . Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. Calvary Baptist Church, Dover, Delaware. Motion to Dismiss#1 Complaint by Cameron Giovanelli, Sarah Giovanelli. Kevin Gugliotta Archdiocese Newark NJ. She mentions the fact in a public post on her facebook page. where is the news coverage there is only accusations for months now i dont fall on either side of this becouse there has been no proof you can say he resigned yes he did however that was not an admission of guilt and we dont know why it was done so i ask any updates. Instead, abuse victims are often told to shut-up or are blamed for what happened. The internet has also played a big part in keeping these men from leaving town under a cloud of suspicion, only to show up on the other side of the country pastoring a new church. 7,743 views 4 years ago Take an inside look at the various ministries of the North Valley Baptist Church. Arrest, prosecution, and imprisonment do. 2019 CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved. cameron giovanelli, the president of golden state baptist college an independent fundamentalist baptist (ifb) institution operated by pastor jack trieber and north valley baptist church in santa clara, california, stands accused of repeatedly sexually assaulting a church teenager when he was the pastor of calvary baptist church in dundalk, 076: Defamation Lawsuit Filed Against Cameron Giovanelli, Sarah Giovanelli, and Immanuel Baptist Church Show Details 24min 52s. Cameron Giovanelli was the pastor of Calvary Baptist Church in Dundalk, Maryland, between 2004-2014. preacherboysdoc.com. Cameron is a resident of 2129 Amberwood Lanes, San Jose, CA 95132-1104. Contact info: cgiovanelli@msn.com Find more info on AllPeople about Cameron Giovanelli and Hopewell Baptist Church, as well as people who work for similar businesses nearby, colleagues for other branches, and more people with a similar name. I wonder why? Currently, Cameron Giovanelli works as a Pastor and Principal at Calvary Baptist Church. From vicious personal attacks to death threats, these fine Christians are more concerned with protecting the brand than doing what is right. Cameron Giovanelli, Immanuel Baptist Church and Sarah Giovanelli: Case Number: 3:2020cv01060: Filed: September 22, 2020: Court: US District Court for the Middle District of Florida: Presiding Judge: . In 2018, he and his family moved to Jacksonville, Florida, and began serving as an assistant pastor at the Immanuel Baptist Church under the leadership of Pastor Greg Neal. Evangelism is the marketing planetc. I do wish hed involved the police as well, but what Pastor Shiflett has done, in context of the culture of the IFB and other such conservative cult-churches, is fairly ballsy. After concerns were raised, Fleener investigated the issue and determined that the individual, Cameron Shane Giovanelli, is not in violation of any Iowa laws by being part of the Harvest. document.write(new Date().getFullYear()); North Valley Baptist Church. 2001 - Dunn's Chapel Church, South Congaree, SC. Yes I have read the law and the worst case scenario for him would be 1 year of prison and a fine. Keep your own life clean God is the real judge! Bruce is now a humanist and an atheist. North Valley Baptist is an independent fundamental Baptist church with a 3,000-seat auditorium and an affiliated Bible college. The Baltimore Sun has an interesting article on the new law: Regardless of the law on the matter, I agree with you that the church should have immediately reported the allegation to law enforcement. In 1976, Dr. Jack Trieber was called to pastor this infant work. The church enabled this behavior by giving the man a second chance. During the course of that investigation, Cameron Giovanelli tendered his resignation to the ministry and his resignation has been accepted. but these people dont realize that in thia case, theres not a whole lot that NVBC could have done other than fire him / force his resignation which occurred fairly promptly. The Black Collar Crime Series relies on public news stories and publicly available information for its content. Dont miss out on College Days at GSBC! [HOLD TO TRUTH,GOD FOREVER Thanks!!!!!!!!!] WI- Minister arrested on child sex charges; Victims respond. Again, in most states, the relationship, legally, could not have been consensual. Bruce left the ministry in 2005, and in 2008 he left Christianity. Hey, God has forgiven him and so should we. The pastor and church board never gave a full accounting of the whats and whys of this mans behavior and their culpability in the matter. What bothers me is that they did not immediately contact the police when they were informed of the allegations. Jasmine, I had no idea that it was removed until you mentioned it. If a pastor leaves a church over some sin, and starts another church, the church he left doesnt have the authority to stop him from being a pastor if the new church wants him. Using the KNVBC app you will be able to listen to our live broadcast as well as trigger your iPhone to load the stream in Safari for listening outside of the app. Neal, unfortunately, escaped prosecution. Money wont heal the wounds, but it sure as hell will make pastors and churches think twice before they bury criminal behavior or allow sexual predators to escape prosecution by moving on to new churches. That's like a slap on the wrist. Why would Cameron Giovenelli take a high profile position at a Bible college, if he had any doubt about this coming out? We assume that Frank Giovanelli and Mark F Giovanelli were among eight dwellers or residents at this place. 075: Break These Chains | Diana Winkler's Escape . thats up to them to decide. Shiflett says in public what many of us have known for years: the IFB church movement tends to cover-up criminal behavior out of fear of damaging their testimony. Heres to hoping that the light that Shiflett turned on the IFB movement will lead to the exposure of other sexual predators who have been hiding in plain sight for years. She originally wasnt going to press charges but because NVBC mishandled the situation on their live stream with their statement,she pressed charges Thursday morning. Had to be such a miserable life. Location. judah friedlander hat translation cameron giovanelli north valley baptist church Knowing the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church movement as I do, Giovanelli will likely have a new ministry gig lined up before he even leaves jail. One church I know of had a man who sexually assaulted teen boys twice. Schedule of Live Streaming Services. This Biblical silence allows abuse to continue. The Candace Cameron Bure Podcast AccessMore & Candy Rock Joel Osteen Podcast Joel Osteen You Might Also Like North Valley Baptist Church Preaching Podcast they dont. Kudos for speaking the truth and letting the shit land where it may. Together, the Giovanelli family has seen the Lord work in remarkable ways, and they are excited about this next phase of their ministry life. why does milo mistake the gelatinous giant for a mountain? The supporters of Jack Hyles and First Baptist Church in Hammond, Indiana are, by far, the worst. 1 1 5 STOP IFB CHURCH ABUSE @preacherboysdoc Sep 3 Sad.Sad for this mans poor wife and children and of course the victims. Criminal charges were filed last Thursday morning by Sarah Jackson. Ask Bro. What, did all our accrued knowledge disappear the moment we walked/ran away from Christianity? Bro. daybreak upper valley newsletter; four monks white distilled vinegar sds. Game over Pastor. Its the fact that he never fessed up or even just decided to step down because he didnt feel right preaching anymore. Its not a matter of consent, because the girl, according to such laws, couldnt grant consent. Established in 1975, North Valley Baptist Church has impacted millions with the. iowa total care number cameron giovanelli north valley baptist church Those accused of crimes are innocent until proven guilty. For several years, Cameron Shane Giovanelli was the Pastor at Calvary Baptist Church in Dundalk, Maryland. North Valley Baptist Church in Santa Clara, California was also fined $5,000 for singing in each of the two worship services yesterday, although social distancing was practiced; After graduation he joined the US Navy where he served as a Communications Systems Technician. What a disgrace. ( NFBC ), https://brucegerencser.net/2019/05/black-collar-crime-pastor-cameron-giovanelli-resurrects-from-the-dead-found-in-florida/, Jack Trieber protected one of his graducates. Gavin Newsom prohibited singing during worship. This action, in most states, is criminal. It shocks me that people informed by history and readily available information on the internet, still maintain an allegiance to harming themselves and others with religion. I have family who attends this church and they, to this day, are not sure of what happened beyond what appeared in the newspaper. also in regards to IFB pastors going on to pastor other churches etc: Giovanelli is out on bond. Christianity is a religion, as is Evangelicalism, and the IFB church movement. The pastor is the CEO. During the course of that investigation, Cameron Giovanelli tendered his resignation to the ministry and his resignation has been accepted. I can find out as many details I need on this case on the Internet, NVBC did the best they could. Cameron Giovanelli was born on June 29, 1977. Neal, himself, was caught up in a sex scandal in 2011 when he was accused of video voyeurism. He has since written two articles, Four Thoughts About the "Remnant" and A Fountain of Life. On this point, I stand with Pastor Shiflett. On May 11, 2018, the victim, Sarah Jackson, posted the following on Facebook: Stacey Shiflett, the current pastor of Calvary Baptist Church in Dundalk, Maryland the church Giovanellli pastored when he allegedly assaulted Jackson released the following video: Theres much about this video that irritates the living hell out of me, especially the fact that the pastor investigated instead of immediately calling law enforcement. Of course, the victim can turn to civil courts for satisfaction. Funny how, again like he wasnt a true x-tian believers say they pray for healing for the abuser, his family and -oh yes I nearly forgot, the victim too. Ask any abuse survivor, however spiritual and close to god they were before the abuse and they will say they have never got over it, its affected or ruined their lives for many decades. Post author By ; Post date low income senior apartments jacksonville, fl; gloucestershire planning applications on cameron giovanelli north valley baptist church on cameron giovanelli north valley baptist church Thats the good news. Cameron Giovanelli was born on June 29, 1977. The previous guy stepped down in April 2014 (per my Google search). . The police probably should have handled it because its quite possible that he has hurt her chances of a criminal suit because hes gathered evidence and blasted it over the internet. Kudos for speaking the truth and letting the shit land where it may. (BGR) September 23, 2020: Filing 6 . . YEARS IN BUSINESS (623) 594-7243. I trust that as time goes on, you will accept the simple reality that we are just people, not born in sin or born bad or fallen from grace, just people who sometimes need help from ourselves and one another. Unresolved: Release in which this issue/RFE will be addressed. I would like to see an IFB#metoo take fire and burn its way through the old dried bullshit of well-swept, polished churches that have long gone scott-free with regard to rampant abuse. Even if they didnt publically go after giovanelli, it doesnt mean they didnt think he was guilty. preacherboysdoc.com. In May 2019, I received word that Giovanelli was in Florida working as the associate pastor of Immanuel Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida. The difference now, of course, is that victims are willing to tell their stories. Now more than ever Christians need information in order to identify and avoid the various deceptions that are in nearly all the churches. The courage it takes for a woman (or man) to publicly tell their story is amazing. Former members of Hopewell Baptist Church are questioning the church's response to allegations of sexual . Giovanelli is still on staff at NVBC. Serving Him is my top priority n life. He lost his job over it and was kicked out of the church. I as a christian in turn can decide that I dont want to.
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