Maury Terry, in THE ULTIMATE EVIL, claimed that Abigail knew Charles Manson and even lent him money. And 'yes' they/she felt nothing. To woo Terry into considering him for a recording contract, he had a mutual friend, Dennis Wilson of the Beach Boys, introduce them. During her time at Radcliffe, Folger became an active member of the college's Gilbert and Sullivan Players, a musical theatre group. He probably stole it out of the bedroom five minutes before he gave it to her. Lindsay, Jimi, Wilson, Cass, on and on. It would be months before the Los Angeles Police were finally able to catch the murderers, who killed another couple, Leno and Rosemary LaBianca, the very night after murdering Abigail Folger. Despite the best efforts of many to relieve them of that burden. Hatami asked the stranger if he could help him. And here's Deana Martin from her 2004 memoirs, "Memories Are Made of This: Dean Martin Through His Daughter's Eyes." They informed Frykowski's friend, Witold-K, that they would be soon returning to live in their home after Tate's arrival. August 13, 1969 Jay Sebring/Date of burial Who lives at 10050 Cielo Drive now? In fact, she attributes this quality to everyone. based on information from your browser. She managed to flee out of a bedroom door but was followed by Patricia Krenwinkel, who caught her and. Their neighbor across the road was singer Cass Elliot of the musical group The Mamas & the Papas, whom the couple quickly befriended. He didn't want her memory tainted by the kind of trash talk that was already creeping into some press articles in the first week after the murders. Other articles of the topic Biography:Ok Rae Yoon, Erin Vassilopoulos, Kylie Minogue, Mayor of Waterbury, Connecticut, Joseph Lesniewski, Erica Boyer, Lorenz HartSome use of "" in your query was not closed by a matching "".Some use of "" in your query was not closed by a matching "". Inhuman animals.And they laughed and danced afterwords. Contact us at digitize@sfsu.edu. On the lawn lay the bodies of Folger and Wojciech Frykowski, separated by just a few feet. mixed truth and lies. Nancy Grace 'One shooter, one killer, one liar': Nancy Grace, Experts Weigh in Following Alex Murdaugh GUILTY Verdict. She eventually left for a job at the Gotham Book Mart on 47th Street. Please remember that when these stupid parole hearings come upIs the concept of parole stupid ? Melcher stated that he'd been given a lift home once and Charlie was in the car. Were you?Yes, many of their actions were stupid.He wasn't stating the concept of parole was stupid, Strawman.You really do pollute this blog with your endless dissection of every sentence. Frykowski, further out on the lawn, had numerous head wounds. At that time, many of the Manson family women were being treated there. Coffee Heiress, Manson Family Murder Victim. Born into an ber wealthy and Catholic family, Folgers early life was one of tradition and high-society training. Twenty-five-year-old Abigail Anne Folger might never have been at 10050 Cielo Drive at all if not for her boyfriend, Wojciech Voytek Frykowski. While a freshman in college, Folger held her coming out party on December 21, 1961 at the St. Francis Hotel in San Francisco, where she made her official debut into San Francisco's high society. A failed musician, Manson was bitter about not receiving a record deal from producer Terry Melcher, who had previously lived at 10050 Cielo Drive. Leslie Van Houten even admitted seeing the tv footage of the Tate murders with bodies being carried out on stretchers, and it made her want to participate even further. During the trial, Hatami identified the stranger as Charles Manson. When did Sharon Tate and Abigail Folger die? Jeremiah 13:23Be careful when quoting scripture and proof texting because you'll almost certainly remove statements from their contexts and it's the context that breathes life into the statement. Beautiful picture of Gibby. At the same time, their Woodstock Road home was being occupied by Frykowski's friend, Polish artist Witold-K, who had arrived in the United States the previous December. Tate had been stabbed 16 times. Abigail Folger/Age at death Where is Jay Sebring buried? For additional information about DIVA please visit our FAQ page. Ines 'Pui' Mejia Folger was born in California of Salvadoran heritage. Continuing with this request will add an alert to the cemetery page and any new volunteers will have the opportunity to fulfill your request. That kind of minimizes some of their action and thought.St Circumstance saidPlease remember that when these stupid parole hearings come upIs the concept of parole stupid ? Wherever there is a claim from the original prosecution, there is a murky counterclaim to "mess with people's heads." One (1) house. Abbey said: "I'm already dead," as Yellow did her thing. Folger had first been injured in the house before running to the front lawn and . Hump, DebI have written this comment several times and can't express my point. But she would never get the chance. Childhood & Early Life. I really don't think there are words strong enough to describe what those sicko fuckos did to their victims. More Crime. Frykowski was then startled awake by a strange man pointing a gun into his face. The LAPD remained baffled and the community terrified as the killers remained on the loose. Bradley lost to Sam Yorty in late May, which left Folger feeling bitter and disillusioned. She gave him a tour of New York, began to teach him English, and they fell in love. When the four returned to Cielo Drive, Voytek sat on the living room couch, Abigail went to her bedroom to read a book and Sharon and Jay went to the master bedroom to talk. Kosinski was married to American steel heiress Mary Hayward Weir. A million babies die and a million babies are born." Beyond brutal. Does anyone believe this?I don't. Her parents divorced in 1952, when she was 9 . Thank you, I said, and slipped the ring on. pp. Starviego said: "Source? Jay Sebring was there, as well as Tate's friend, Shahrokh Hatami, an Iranian photographer. She was the great-granddaughter of J. Returning home, Frykowski fell asleep on the couch while Folger was in her room reading. Posted on April 16, 2012 by Sylvia McClure. She registered as an unsalaried worker for the Los Angeles County Welfare Department in September 1968. The killers, nor the friends/f*ck buddies of the killers (i.e.-The Family) never seemed to be the least bit bothered, nor repulsed by the murders. Failed to delete memorial. In August 1968, both Folger and Frykowski decided to move to Los Angeles. She was born on August 11, 1943 and her birthplace is California. So in this case, it is claimed the victims were unknown to Charlie and the killers and hey presto, suddenly Tex knew Wojiciech, Wojiciech raped Linda, the women swam in the Cielo pool the day before the murders, Charlie knew Sharon, Charlie partied with Sharon, Charlie 'knew' William Garretson, Pat knew William Garretson, Tex had a drug connection in Rosemary, Tex & Suzan LaBerge planned Rosemary's death, Linda masterminded the murders after being burned for $1000.And it semi works, celebs "recall" Sharon & Charlie being at the same party {until you actually check it out and discover they weren't there at the same time}, Charlie at Cielo and because he went to parties were celebs were, because people gave him money and possessions, connections are conflated and whizzbangfairy, Abigail loaned Charlie money. Dennis Wilson of the Beach Boys was there, and he, Terry, and a prominent attorney were discussing some kind of deal. On August 5, 1969, four days before the murders of Sharon Tate, Jay Sebring, Abigail Folger, Voytek Frykowski and Steven Parent at Tate's rented home on Cielo Drive, Paul and Thomas were on trial for Ramon's murder. For much of her adult life, she worked as a social worker. The next year during the month of April and continuing through most of May, she was a political volunteer for the campaign of Tom Bradley, a black councilman running for mayor of Los Angeles. She soon made the move to New York City, where she got a job working for a magazine publisher. Folger's body was returned to San Francisco and taken to Crippen and Flynn Mortuary in Redwood City. Contact us at digitize@sfsu.edu. [2] Biografa[ editar | editar la fonte] Abigail's father, Peter Folger, sold the company to Proctor and Gamble in 1963, but still ran it from the building at 101 Howard St. that his father, James Folger Jr., had built in 1904. Regular. Which memorial do you think is a duplicate of Abigail Folger (1249)? She was the great-granddaughter of J. When Susan spilled the beans to Virginia Graham, Ronnie Howard and Nancy Jordon, it wasn't with the intention of giving herself up to the authorities. I guess that I'm getting to be a sentimental old fart!Lindsay is still performing well, is in good physical shape, etc. ******************************Years later, a lucid William Garretson stated that he heard her say it also. No strong ties to his business beyond that. In early January 1968, Jerzy Kosinski introduced Folger to his friend, aspiring writer Wojciech Frykowski, at a party and the two liked each other. The ruthless murders made headlines across the world. Mar 17, 2008 #1. They didn't care about the funerals, or how the surviving families would feel, or anything. Abigail was 25 years old at the time of death. The voiceover is from reporter Pat O'Brien. A private Funeral Service occurred on July 18. Trivia (9) Was the heiress to the Folger Coffee fortune. Share this memorial using social media sites or email. Frykowski left minutes later, in Tate's rented 1969 red Camaro, to unload a box at the couple's Woodstock Road home. A private Funeral Service occurred on July 18. On July 11 Abigail had commissioned several articles of clothing to be tailored by the proprietor for the sum of $540. Folgers therapist thought that as of her final appointment that summer, she was ready to leave Frykowski. This memorial has been copied to your clipboard. Folger's annual income from her inheritances, after taxes, was $130,000 a year (the equivalent of $838,193 a year in 2009 dollars).[5]. Q: You got out of the car and then they left? Why notEven if true, it's a motive. Folger had been stabbed twenty-eight times and died from a stab wound to the aorta. Why not.It's this complete wantonness and lack of empathy that argued for keeping them where they are. The true 'look at the evidence' is innocent human beings, full of hope and beauty and dreams were horribly murdered: to start a race war; to copy another murder; or to exact revenge for $1000 of mda. The 26-year-old actress -- along with friends Abigail Folger, Wojciech Frykowski and Jay Sebring -- were victims of a deadly rampage led by cult leader Charles Manson and his followers, who came to be known as the Manson family. "Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? Atkins told her cellmate how [Folger] looked at me and smiled and I looked at her and smiled right before Watson stabbed her in the stomach. Four months later, they were brutally murdered. That looks like a great archive Deb. There are examples {such as the Ninevites in Jonah or King Manasseh} where cities and individuals "accustomed to doing evil" did change their ways. An investigator on the scene recalled: Id worked homicide for five years and seen a lot of violence. Although all five defendants were originally sentenced to death, the sentences were commuted to life in prison after Californias 1972 in People v. Anderson. She married Benjamin Gardner on 6 January 1757, in Nantucket, Nantucket, Massachusetts Bay Colony, British Colonial America. 163-164. December 11, 1969. While employed there, her main job was to organize the fine art museum council. Thanks for using Find a Grave, if you have any feedback we would love to hear from you. The jury of seven men and five women heard Deputy District Attorney James Ideman outline the State's case in his opening statement. Deb,We're not seeing enough of your posts these days. This is Kanarek's cross on the meeting. The nightgown she was wearing was so soaked in blood that it was nearly impossible to tell the now-crimson garment had originally been white. Celebs with common situations with others do it all the time. Since both were killed at the same time I'm not sure how the debt was settled.The San Francisco Bay Area Television Archive is great. Folger and Frykowski were later introduced to Jay Sebring through Tate and Polanski. Your Resource for the Tate-LaBianca (TLB) Murders. On July 8, 1969, Folger and Frykowski learned that Sharon Tate would be returning to the U.S. later that month. Manson family members and murder suspects Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkle, and Leslie Van Houten. The cellmate recalled how there was not a shred of sympathy on [Atkinss] part for the victims, and went to prison authorities, who in turn alerted the police. Please try again later. Read her testimony during the penalty phase of the trial (***coward***). Her parents divorced in the early-1950s and her father married again and had two sons. Folger was survived by her parents, Peter and Ines, her brother . I tried again. This page will put a light upon the Abigail Folger bio, wiki, age, birthday, family details, affairs, controversies, caste, height, weight, rumors, lesser . "That whole theory never made a lick of sense to me. Drugs were reportedly at the center of the tension. She admits that she can kill anyone for NO reason at ANY TIME. Author of the "More to the Story" true crime nonfiction series. It was inside the gate, in the parking area. Weve updated the security on the site. Abigail told close friends and her psychiatrist that she was intent on leaving Voytek for good. If anyone?MANZELLA: Objection, your Honor. For memorials with more than one photo, additional photos will appear here or on the photos tab. starviego saidSo when Deanna Martin says she saw Charlie at Terry Melcher's place in 1968 you are saying that never happened?I can't say it never happened. Funeral of Abigail Folger HelterSkelterForum 12K subscribers 485 109K views 12 years ago Extended raw footage of Abigail Folger's funeral which took place on August 13th, 1969 at Our Lady. In his November '69 interview by LAPD he didn't know Hinmans name. I thought you might like to see a memorial for Abigail Anne Folger I found on Findagrave.com. And then the interviewer says "But Sharon Tates baby died, yours didnt?" 'Excuse me,' I said, but he totally ignored me. ", Your Scrapbook is currently empty. Those sentenced to term-life sentences for first degree murder in California serve an average of 23 years and most of them were given 15 or 25 to life. On August 6, 1969 film director Michael Sarne invited Folger, Frykowski and Tate over for a dinner party at his rented Malibu beach house. Are you sure that you want to remove this flower? Grim:You said:What therefore does one do with people who genuinely regret what they have done ? Maybe that's one of the things Peter Folger was trying to keep hidden. On August 8, 1969, Tate had been home for three weeks after visiting Polanski, who was preparing to direct a film in London. YouTubeAbigail Folger and Voytek Frykowskis relationship turned sour after they moved into Sharon Tate and Roman Polanskis house. Have a look through both his and Deana Martin's testimony in the Watson trial. Was dating Voytek Frykowski at the time of her death. You are only allowed to leave one flower per day for any given memorial. After graduating from Radcliffe, she enrolled in the fall of 1964 at Harvard University, also in Cambridge, where she did graduate work and received a degree in Art History. Abigail Folger was born on Aug. 11, 1943, and would die just two days before her 26th birthday. [7], During the early morning hours of August 9, three of Charles Manson's followers: Susan Atkins, Charles "Tex" Watson, and Patricia Krenwinkel, broke into the Cielo Drive home and killed Folger, Sharon Tate, Jay Sebring and Wojciech Frykowski. Do you believe Leslie was part of Hinman ? Tillsammans med henne var Tate, Jay . That August, they drove from New York to Los Angeles and rented a house in the Hollywood hills. This was the worst.. [9], When investigators were called in later that morning, the scene that greeted them was unlike anything they had ever witnessed. Not to mention what he did to Gary by slicing him in the face with a sword. Manson had a grudge against refrigerators. She died on 9 August 1969 in Bel Air, California, USA. When the police arrived, they found that the Hollywood home had been turned into a human slaughterhouse. After moving into 10050 Cielo Drive on April 1, 1969, to house-sit for Polanski and his wife, the Hollywood actress Sharon Tate, they argued constantly. Abigail showed him around New York, helping him with his English and teaching him American customs (which he dutifully jotted down in his notebook). Through Frykowski, Folger met director Roman Polanski and his wife, actress Sharon Tate. Death! All photos appear on this tab and here you can update the sort order of photos on memorials you manage. The picture underneath the picture of Abigail Folger's closeup of the lacerations on her face is indeed her. At around 10 p.m., Folger phoned her mother in Connecticut to let her know she had booked a flight to San Francisco the next morning. KPIX News footage from August 13th 1969 featuring views of the funeral of Abigail Folger at Our Lady of the Wayside Catholic Church in Portola Valley, CA. You are nearing the transfer limit for memorials managed by Find a Grave. It's this complete wantonness and lack of empathy that argued for keeping them where they are. Katie stabbed Abigail Folgers to death, following her, when she tried to escape, out to the lawn by the pool of the Tate residence. This Interactive "Murder Map" Will Tell You Where You'd Most Likely Get Killed In Medieval London, Leo Sharp: El Chapo's 87-Year-Old Drug Mule, What Stephen Hawking Thinks Threatens Humankind The Most, 27 Raw Images Of When Punk Ruled New York, Join The All That's Interesting Weekly Dispatch. Besides all of the hippie, dippy, trippy stuff, of which there is plenty, there is quite a bit of news coverage on the Black Muslims including interviews with Malcom X, WD Muhammad and coverage of the Zebra murders. A letter from Ms. Papke's was attached to her claim. On this Wikipedia the language links are at the top of the page across from the article title. This flower has been reported and will not be visible while under review. Can't you just see them doing the closing in Gary's living room. [13], During her trial, Patricia Krenwinkel admitted that she had chased Folger onto the lawn and stabbed her. On 2 levels.Interesting that you should pick out Linda as opposed to Pat, Leslie and Susan.And interesting that you wouldn't stand by a loved one that had erred. How can there be any doubt about the guilt of those responsible?Does the search for a motive truly matter? https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/1249/abigail-anne-folger. On a hot summer night in August 1969, pregnant actress Sharon Tate, Jay Sebring, Abigail Folger, Wojciech Frykowski, and Steven Parent were brutally murdered by members of the Manson Family. Folger, Frykowski, Tate and Sebring, along with Tate's parents and two younger sisters, all watched the moon landing on television. I started dating Terry Melcher, one of Claudias old flames. Does anyone believe this? "LVH was sentenced to 7 years to life. There will be a Memorial Mass at 4:00 pm on September 17, 2007 at St. Ignatius Church, Fulton & Parker Streets. I think she just invested some cash. He was dressed in a blue work shirt and jeans and did not seem too happy.I tried to open the refrigerator door but the guy wouldn't budge. See more ideas about manson family, folgers, charles manson. Shortly after, Folger put on her nightgown and started to read in one of the guest rooms. The cremated remains of notorious cult leader Charles Manson were scattered on a California hillside following a Christian funeral on Saturday, nearly four months after his . She managed to escape the house until she was tracked down by Manson Family members and stabbed to death. She has no answer other than that she wanted to shut her up. It's the paradox of the biblical record.Without a doubt, Atkins, Krenwinkel and Van Houten were utterly without empathy and were wanton in their "it had to be done" outlook. That was about as much as their empty heads could handle and still keep the story halfway straight between them all. I say good for her. Thanks for this one. The killers, nor the friends/f*ck buddies of the killers (i.e.-The Family) never seemed to be the least bit bothered, nor repulsed by the murders. It was in New York in 1968 when she met Voytek Frykowski, who was new to America. And you can also see the tremendous wealth of people in her circle. . Thanks for posting this Deb! It was just something to do, something Manson asked them to do. Frykowski had poor command of English so he and Abigail communicated with each other in French (Frykowski becoming fluent in the language during his time in Paris). A day earlier, Folger had quit her job as a volunteer. Abigail "Gibby" Anne Frykowski (born Folger) was born on month day 1943, at birth place, California, to Peter Folger and Inez Folger (born Mejia). Becoming a Find a Grave member is fast, easy and FREE. She was the great-granddaughter of J. Abigail Anne Folger ( San Francisco, California, United States, November of August of 1943 - Los Angeles, California, 9 of August of 1969) was a famous heiress of the company Cafes Folger, known for being one of the victims of the slaughter in Cielo Drive perpetrated by followers of Charles Manson in 1969. Can you blame him ? This page was last edited on 20 January 2015, at 17:32. KPIX News footage from August 13th 1969 featuring views of the funeral of Abigail Folger at Our Lady of the Wayside Catholic Church in Portola Valley, CA. Try again later. Q: Did Mr. Manson say for what purpose he wanted the money and the dune buggies?WITNESS: Mr. Manson said that, "We need money to get our stuff together, supplies and our dune buggies, to go out to the desert, because we have been spotted at the camp site by the Fire Patrol. These are the final photographs ever shot of Sharon Tate. Even a scum bag like Danny DeCarlo drew the line on murder. Previously sponsored memorials or famous memorials will not have this option. I have other sisters who haven't butchered people. R I P Abigail Folger. [8] Steven Parent, an 18-year-old friend of the property's caretaker William Garrettson, was also killed when he encountered the group in the driveway of the house. That was maybe about a month before that. Sharon Tate's last night with Abigail Folger, Wojciech Frykowski, Jay Sebring: Part 5 The four friends went to a restaurant to get food before returning to Tate's home in Benedict Canyon, California. She died on August 9, 1969 in Bel Air, California, USA. Kanarek saw it as somehow implying that Springer was to receive and sell property that the others planned to steal from Hinman and asked whether that was the case, to which Springer responded with a resounding "No." YouTubeAbigail Folger was heiress to a massive fortune. Out on the lawn was Abigail Folger. In 1960, her father married again, this time to his 24-year-old private secretary, Beverly Mater, who was already pregnant with his youngest daughter, Elizabeth, born in January 1961. I've always felt the earliest reports and accounts from those involved are the most accurate. Yet, nowadays, people want them out. She then matriculated at Radcliffe College in Cambridge, Massachusetts in the fall of 1961. The voiceover is from reporter Pat O'Brien. Birthday: August 11, 1943. I don't think the killers even had a motive.It was just something to do, something Manson asked them to do. It doesn't really help the prosecution. Funerals of Sharon Tate, Abigail Folger, Steven Parent & Jay Sebring HelterSkelterForum 11.8K subscribers Subscribe 772 Share Save 211K views 12 years ago www.helterskelterforum.com NBC archived. Resend Activation Email, Please check the I'm not a robot checkbox, If you want to be a Photo Volunteer you must enter a ZIP Code or select your location on the map. Wadkins & Co. Try again. No. "Ines Mejia Folger -- socialite lived with zest", "Search for something more - lead to death", "Patricia Krenwinkel, Charles Manson Follower, Denied Parole; "Crimes Remain Relevant," Says Official", article "Abigail Folger" is from Wikipedia, https://en.everybodywiki.com/index.php?title=Abigail_Folger&oldid=1804798, Activists from the San Francisco Bay Area, Pages using infobox person with unknown parameters, Portal templates with all redlinked portals. The heiress to the Folger's Coffee empire was stabbed 28 times after being . [3] She graduated with honors in June 1961. Abigail Folger. Her funeral was held on the morning of Wednesday, August 13, 1969, at Our Lady of the Wayside Church in Portola Valley, California,CA, a church that had been built by her grandparents . Her debutante ball was one of the highlights of the social season, with Folger wearing a bright yellow Christian Dior gown that she had purchased in Paris the previous summer.[4]. You would think with you sheer volume of verbiage you would get some things right, but no, you miss the point on a consistent basis. by Leigh Egan. Ihre Liebe zur Kunst veranlasste sie, ihren Karriereweg entsprechend zu gestalten. The People vs. Charles Manson began in June 1970 and concluded in January of 1971 when the jury determined Manson and family members Atkins, Krenwinkel, Watson, and Leslie Van Houten who helped commit the LaBianca killings guilty of murder. The case finally broke when in October of 1969 police raided the Manson familys ranch in Death Valley and arrested several of its members for auto theft and possession of stolen property. When I was driving up to the house a couple of weeks later, he was just getting into a limo, which then left. by the way. And as long as I am around these blogs I will remind people that only animals could do something such as what was done to you. And to do that the women had to lie and part of that was to demonstrate how big and bad they were. She felt the plight of the poor people so deeply that she eventually had to quit because she felt she wasn't doing enough to help them. I think pretty much the last thing I would want is for Manson to know my address. Look at all the people that were supposed to have been at Cielo on the night of the murders for example.Funny thing about Melcher ~ he never denied Charlie came to Cielo in the summer of '68. Abigail Folger besuchte die Santa Catalina School in . After the the horrible night when Abigail Folger lost her life, her body was returned to San Francisco and transported to the Crippen and Flynn Mortuary,which is located in Redwood City,. In May 1969, Folger and her mother Ines attended the San Francisco opening of Jay Sebring's newest shop at 629 Commercial Street. Failed to remove flower. Sorry! Col. That lack of initiative is why you will never have obedient zombies. At the time, Frykowski was not then fluent in English, but, like Folger, he was fluent in French. Please enter your email address and we will send you an email with a reset password code. As I came and went from my trips, I would never know who I might encounter when I returned. She contributed both her time and a large amount of her own money to the Bradley campaign. Thanks Matt and DebI noticed the archive also features zodiac coverage which I know Deb must like, The senseless of these murders is to me evident in this video. Following a Catholic mass, Abigail was entombed inside the Main Mausoleum at Holy Cross Cemetery in Colma, California. A notice in the Los Angeles Times stated: "The early American farm-type dwelling at 10050 Cielo Drive, Beverly Hills, has been bought by Michele Morgan from J.F. . It is labeled "Unidentified victim (probably Abigail Folger?)". Roman and Sharon Tate went to Europe to begin working on separate film projects when the tension between the two intensified. Does one continually remind them of what they did and say "no matter what you do, no matter how much you regret, I'm always going to keep you in those moments. Oops, we were unable to send the email. And another thing .I don't think the killers even had a motive. As we all know, it's very hard to find anything at all about Abigail Folger. A. Folger, the founder of Folgers Coffee. The next morning, the Polanskis housekeeper, Winifred Chapman, ran screaming from 10050 Cielo Drive. For much of her adult life, she worked as a social worker. Learn more about merges. Perhaps their turmoil stemmed from Frykowskis abuse of Folgers money. Los Angeles CNN . I thought in the taped interview he had an idea of who Hinman was, mispronouncing the name, but close. 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